Decarbonizing Metal 3D Printing: James DeMuth, CEO and co-founder of Seurat

Adam Penna (00:07):
Welcome to the am voices podcast on additive manufacturing.com brought to you by Metrix, an ASME Company. Metrix provides resources of content, communities, and expertise to educate technology decisions and forge measurable long-term business relationships. For more information, visit our website Metrix-Connect.com. Hi everybody. Welcome to another edition of AM Voices. My name is Adam Penna, your host and I am here with James DeMuth, who is the CEO, and co-founder over there at Seurat. Hello, James. Welcome.

James DeMuth (00:42):
Hey, Thanks for having me today.

Adam Penna (00:43):
Yeah, I know we had a little bit of pre-conversation here and a lot of great news going on with Seurat. You recently had the press release with the investments happening there and a lot of different things happening with the company. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about Seurat and how you’ve gotten to this point and what is actually is going on with what’s happening in that new press release for the investments that you have going on?

James DeMuth (01:07):
Yeah, terrific. Absolutely. So, you know, just taking a step back here, right? We are, I mean, essentially our mission is to, at some level democratize manufacturing and do it in a green and renewable way. We’re able to bring, to bear an additive manufacturing process that, you know, we can see how it can scale to outcompete, conventional manufacturing, techniques of machining casting, and forging all on a per price basis while maintaining all the benefits of additive manufacturing and furthermore doing it from a perspective where it’s all of our energy is electrically generated, which means we can be energy source agnostic. We can choose our energy sources, and that gives us an amazing potential to be completely renewable driven and reduce greenhouse gas emissions that are traditionally emitted by those conventional manufacturing techniques. So we’re very excited to, you know, bring this new technology to market and this new investment, this series be extension will allow us to essentially facilitate our increased customer demand.

James DeMuth (02:07):
Also allow us to get going on some of our long leads for platform two development work, as well as, you know, all you can’t hardly turn your head in the, in the world these days without hearing about some supply chain issue. And so, you know, you know, of course securing our own supply chain is of interest as well. So you know, in all of that, you know, we have a lot of hiring to do and a lot of stuff to buy and places to go people to see. So we’ll be we’ll be doing, doing that.

Adam Penna (02:34):
It’s exciting times, you know, that’s a lot of what’s been going on, you’ve heard over the last couple years, especially with things that have happened over the pandemic. About people working on supply chains and looking at new way to kind of secure that and also looking at different services out there, people that actually do high end 3D printing. I know you’re concentrating on laser powder bed fusion, is that correct? That’s correct.

James DeMuth (02:55):
Our, our process is fundamentally based on the laser powder bed sort of, you know, core what we’re doing though is, and lemme just say, we see that you really need to have a full melt technology that is, you know, important for delivering quality parts. We wanna be able to essentially when it part comes off the printer, it’s, you know, it’s almost ready to go. The closer you can get that part to being the final finish part, the, the more cost effective you’re gonna be. And so having a full melt technology is a critical part to that, cuz you don’t need to do any post-processing steps of centering or you know, and so forth that you know, baking off, you know, interstitial, you know, adhesive of glue binder you name it. So that’s, that’s important to really driving the cost down and, and getting quality metal all at the same time.

James DeMuth (03:48):
But the real innovation that we have is, you know, laser powder, but fusions been around for a long time, right? Since the early nineties for metal and it’s, you know, it, it’s, it’s big issue is on scalability. And right now there’s really two main ways you can scale, you can add more lasers. And so you have multiple lasers moving in parallel, or you can crank up the power in a single laser beam. But there’s problems with scaling with both of those and they both lead to diminishing returns. And so we found out a way to essentially do the process in a massively parallel way that gets us fantastic economies of scale and allows us to essentially, as we scale up our prices get disproportionately cheaper and cheaper and cheaper as opposed to conventional laser powder fusion, which is sort of the opposite. It gets, you know, diminishing returns. So that’s kind of our, the basis of, of how we see it and why laser and full mountain in particular is important.

Adam Penna (04:44):
Yeah. There was a couple things that you hit on there that I’d like to ask some more questions about. And I know you mentioned it was the full melt and the area print and you were talking about actually using a laser, right. And are you doing something different with the laser? Is it is higher powered, but multiple paths or explain a little bit about that side of it..

New Speaker (05:02):
Yeah. So it’s a fundamental level to go faster. You, you know, conservation of energy, you need to deliver more energy to the powder bed at a faster rate. So you need a higher power. So either way you go, if you want to go faster, you need more power. You can do that in a single beam, but if you do it in a single beam with today’s technology it turns out that there’s this sort of optimum power per unit area that you need to focus the laser to that spot size to get, you know, full density, part creation, right? If your intensity’s too low, you just don’t melt the powder. And if you’re too high, you start laser drilling, right? Laser cutting is an industry for a reason. And so that means there’s this sweet spot where you’re in this welding regime and even, you know, further inside of that is where you get good quality, full density parts.

James DeMuth (05:46):
And so if you just crank up the power in a single beam, you gotta defocus the beam to maintain those same parameters. So when you defocus the beam, you lose resolution and you know, you see, you know, a lot of what they’re called more like robotic welders. They have resolutions that are the size of my thumb. You know, with weld pools that big and they need to be machined extensively afterwards. So if you just scale up the laser power in single beam, you lose resolution. As you go faster, if you add additional beams, every laser, when it’s focus a spot on the middle powder bed and not only does it melt the powder, but it actually brings it to its boiling point. And you know, like boiling water makes a cloud of steam. Boiling metal makes a soup plume that is black and absorbs laser light, light crazy.

James DeMuth (06:30):
And so every laser has a, so plume coming off of its weld pool. And that means as you add more lasers to the system, they all have all these in dependence weld pools with their own. So plumes that are sort of dancing around in parallel. And it’s this very intricate you know, problem to solve where each laser can’t cross over the so plume of every other laser, right? So you have diminish returns, but you wanna go faster. So you’ve gotta add more power. How do you do it and overcome all those, those those detriments, right? Those hurdle. And what we found was the way to do that is okay. We crank up the power in a single beam, great. We have a higher throughput, but we then pattern our beam such that the resolution that we print with is dictated by the pixel size in the beam and no longer for the over overall size, the beam itself. So now we can have whatever arbitrary pixel we embed in the beam as our resolution size and the throughput of the laser that we incorporate into the machine.

Adam Penna (07:28):
Interesting. I know you’re talking about that. Pixelization for the laser and couldn’t help, but kind of parlay that over to the, the name Seraut, you know, there was a, a French artist. Does it have anything to do with the pointalism and why you picked that name or is that just, it might,

James DeMuth (07:45):
Might. Okay.

Adam Penna (07:47):
Interesting.

James DeMuth (07:47):
We thought there was some interesting parallels between, you know George Seraut built up his images from the careful placement of, you know, millions of points of, of paint. And as we perceive it as points of light on, you know, the canvas and we are essentially projecting an image to our powder bed that contains millions of points of light that are carefully tuned to, to generate the image that you see and the part that’s created. So we thought there was some interesting synergies there. And yeah, that is,

Adam Penna (08:17):
That is I, I, you know, art guy from back in high high school and stuff, and I saw the name, that was the first thing I thought of. And then I saw it was reminded about the pointalism and I said, wait a minute, there’s gotta be some sort of congruency here on what’s going on with laser. Absolutely. Really neat man. Really neat. Well, well, that’s, that’s interesting because you’re not only developing the machine, which you do have an MVP, correct. You have machine out there that you’re currently using or able to do this. Yep.

James DeMuth (08:44):
We have our, essentially our pro machine that’s at our facility today. And, you know, our business plan is not to sell machines, but rather to sell parts to customers. Right. So we’ll be building our machines. We actually have vertically integrated. We build our own lasers, we build our own patterning devices. And that’s because nothing was out there in the market that did what we need to do and we know how to do it. So we were able to leverage those capabilities. You know, we’re a spin out of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, which has a ton of experience in lasers tons of lasers.

Adam Penna (09:13):
Yeah. Yeah.

James DeMuth (09:15):
So a lot of experience there, a lot of, you know, a lot of that knowhow baked into the DNA of the company because well, we’ve a, a lot of our teammates hail from there. So yeah.

Adam Penna (09:28):
Makes sense now, so you’re talking about what you were doing with your business plan, and that was the service providers not actually selling the machines, but providing the service of what the machines can do for people out in the industry. Now that’s, that’s a great business plan. II’ve seen some, more people taking that approach, but with your tweak on the actual technology, bringing the the price, right, the actual price of building a part down, you have to focus on industry, right? So you have initial industry that you’re focusing on to do that.

James DeMuth (09:59):
Yeah. You know, it’s interesting the, the traditional players you think of, when you talk about additive manufacturing, you think of aerospace, you think of medical. Those are the players that are, are somewhat satisfied with what exists in the market today. You know, they’re willing to pay the high are prices that exist. They’ve already done the extensive amount of work that they need to do to qualify their products. And so we’re seeing the most increased interest from, you know, industries that are gonna benefit from these lower prices whose needs today are not being served. And that’s predominantly automotive consumer electronics. And to some extent the energy industry, no.

Adam Penna (10:36):
Nice, nice. You’re exactly right. There’s some amazing applications in there that obviously use this technology. So I’m looking forward to seeing that. And, along those same aspects, you have to already have picked a certain material, right? Are you have multiple materials or you starting with one material? What is your what is your approach on that side?

James DeMuth (10:55):
Well, as a startup, we need to be pragmatic when we’re starting with materials, you know, we’re using powderized metal, not all metals behave nicely. And so we picked one to start off with that. We had experience with, at Lawrence Livermore, from, you know, historical aspects as well as it being essentially, you know, non-reactive, non-toxic easily approved by the local fire department to operate our facility. So we pick 316L as our first material of choice. But we picked, you know, essentially as we bring different customers online as part of our customer engagement program the way we work with them is that we say, Hey, we’re gonna qualify your material and your parts to meet your needs. And our initial targets are to start with, so our standard additive materials that are out there, so we’re starting with steel, we’re moving then into, in canal. And then essentially it’s, it’s really customer driven there on out. But you know, we’ll be looking at aluminum and titanium, especially as we open up our new facility, which will be approved to handle those different materials.

Adam Penna (11:54):
Yeah. Now that facility, is that all happening up north? Is that correct? Or are you, were you open to that’s

James DeMuth (11:59):
Correct. So we’re, we’re based out of the, the Wilmington Massachusetts area. So this essentially is, is gonna be, you know, our, our first probably couple facilities will be in this area. You know, we’ll be setting up, you know, the long term vision here is that we’re setting up essentially print depots you know, first, nationally then internationally that are gonna be either near large OEM sites or near distribution hub. And essentially these are part printing factories that, you know, can make parts where you need them when you need them. But specifically aligned with the large OEMs that they’re, they’re near. So, you know, we’ll be doing first relatively local because we wanna make sure that, you know, our engineering base can most effectively address those. And, you know, as we grow that deployment will grow and that’s kind of the, you know, part of the big vision of additive manufacturing is to be able to enable that. And we see this is, is, this is how we would do that.

Adam Penna (12:55):
That’s awesome. And I know you talked a bit about the Lawrence Livermore Natiional Laboratory there, and your background with that. But what else, brought you to this? What became so passionate about, especially working with, you know, metal laser powder bed fusion, which is obviously mature in a lot of ways, but you’re taking a different approach to it. So before all that happened, what actually drew you towards that? Why was that a big interest for you to solve?

James DeMuth (13:22):
Yeah, so, you know, initially I was actually working at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory on laser inertia, laser inertial, fusion energy. We were working on a program to take the that’s there at Livermore, which is called the national ignition facility and turn it into a power plant. Instead of firing the lasers once a day for doing various research and development, fire them 10 times a second, and, you know, how do you get those photons to create the nuclear reaction, to turn that eventually into electrons that go to the grid? You know, nuclear energy is one of the most you know, there’s no you know, waste generation is part of it. You know, you have a potential to make an essentially a really a green resource of energy that is essentially driven off of seawater. I mean, depends on your different fuel sources, but there’s a lot of, a lot of potential there for, for really, you know, sort of your almost ultimate energy source.

James DeMuth (14:19):
So the program we were working on, you know, you gotta, we, we, we were mandated to use today’s materials. And when we look at what the chamber was that we needed to build to how this fusion reaction limiting it, today’s materials put a lot of really interest sting design constraints, and we need to use be very creative with design. And so no surprise that we saw additive manufacturing as a, as a potential technique that we could use here and actually that we needed to use. But when we looked at, you know, we need to have full melt, right? We need to have full density part creation. We need to actually have really all the capabilities that exist in laser pad fusion. It’s just that laser powder bed fusion was way too expensive and way too slow. It was gonna take like 200 years to print one of these fusion chambers. That’s like, not in my lifetime. Right. So how do you make that happen? This was really all at, at some level, it was driven off of a need that we need to do things faster because we need to enable the next generation of green energy. So it’s kind of all rooted in that. At some level we view manufacturing as really being foundational to, and the energy industry, because well, you have to make stuff right. And that’s what manufacturing’s all about

Adam Penna (15:36):
It is. It is. And I know that that’s a big part of everyone’s looking at or should be looking at how they can become more sustainable out there and look at how they could reduce the amount of waste they are as a company. And, and also as a process, you know, 3D printing is looking at the digitalization of things and of course, just like anything else, there is some there’s waste associated with it. But you know, how we reduce that and how we move forward is you know, everyone’s kind of focused on, on what we could do next inside of even having a, you knowa part of a process, as a service that is less wasteful. And so talk a little bit more about that, cause I know that’s been a big focus for you andit’s, it is a big deal out there. So what are you doing that is actually addressing that?

James DeMuth (16:24):
Yeah, so, you know, I think at a really high level, the, the, the most direct impact is the fact that we see how we can compete against casting on a per price point basis, a dollar per kilo basis, and do so while being completely, you know, renewable energy driven. And that means that there’s a potential to displace, you know, essentially, you know, giga tons worth of CO2. At the, that’s a say our 20, our, our 2030 our target here is to be parts at $25 a kilo with the market size that, that enables just in casting that would replace two and a half giga, tons a year of CO2 production by having the parts manufactured through thera process versus you know, through conventional casting. And that’s largely from displacing various coal or natural gas usage, that’s part of the casting process.

Adam Penna (17:18):
Wow. And, and so you’re nailing that on the head, as far as the, the applications you know, you’re starting out with tooling steel, correct. And then that’s obviously good for the tooling side of things. Its one of the great applications out there, and it sounds like it’s part of your roadmap. What do you see past the tooling side? I know you talked a little more about that getting into inconel is that,more towards aerospace? Is that what you’re thinking? Once you get past the tooling material?

James DeMuth (17:43):
Yeah. So, you know, I guess the way we view things is that on the material side, or really just on the, in general. So there’s the direct applications that are, what I just described is sort of like directly how we see that we can impact greenhouse gas reduction. There are secondary effects, which when you, you look at the parts that are being manufactured really anything that moves benefits from advanced design enabled by added manufacturing, right? If you can lightweight objects that move around, it takes less energy to move them and they can maintain their stiffness and do their job, but require, you know, less consumption to, to do what they need to do. They can perform better. And so at that very fundamental level, anything that moves benefits from lightweight. And so whether that’s a structural frame on a car, an aircraft railroad, a boat, you name it, right.

James DeMuth (18:36):
It’s moving around. If you can make it do its job while weighing less, you just won right. You, you you’ve, you’ve reduced the amount of energy it takes to move that object along. You know, reducing the amount of mass and something also reduces it cost in a lot of ways. So you can reduce the amount of energy you took to actually build it in the first place. So if there’s knock on effects you know, when you’re talking about, you know, car frames, you know, whether it’s in general, you’re talking about aluminum there. And when you’re talking about, let’s say, you know turbine blades you know, you’re talking, that’s where you’re in large part, talking about a lot of canal parts. You know, for, for many of these other applications, whether you’re talking you know, nuclear or, or, or whatnot, you know, steel has a big impact from the energy perspective.

James DeMuth (19:24):
But it’s, it’s really across all material segments. What’s really exciting about additive manufacturing, especially when you look out into the future, right? When you have this ability to sort of have, you know, customer or sorry, you know, designed or curated micro structure. So imagine like little tiny lattice that you can embed into the material, you can start to make, you know, steel or any material behave like another material, right. Something that doesn’t exist today. And in fact, with the appropriate lattice introduction, you could make a steel part behave, not just like aluminum, but like carbon fiber, but it’s infinitely recyclable, ‘cuz you can just remelt it down. It’s steel. Right. so there’s like an incredible potential there for it advanced designs that really are only enabled by additive manufacturing. And then again only enabled by additive manufacturing at scale. And that’s what additive manufacturing can’t do today. It can’t hit scale and cost and quality all at the same time. And that’s crucial in order to compete with conventional manufacturing.

Adam Penna (20:32):
Yeah. I hear it often said that you have to give up one of those three you know, you know, to right now you know, but yeah, to be able to focus on all three sounds like it’s your priority. So that’s that’s great to hear. I mean it’s not something that is I love seeing this push forward, you know, it’s, it’s like, especially in laser powder bed fusion. I worked EOS for five years. So I was really privy to see what was happening on the L-PBF side of, of the whole thing. And it’s just amazing out there as far as pushing metal forward pushing what could be done, the amount of different people that are focused on making things better. And the ones that are doing it appropriately like yourself that have actually got the investments actually built the actual machine and, and now are doing things to improve processes and improve the, the bottom line, which is the cost out there and the speed that these things are and the quality right. Cost speed and quality. All three. Yeah. Wow. That’s a, that’s a dream man. So no congrats on that. And I love to see more of this as it’s going, when is everything becoming public as far asthe service being available?

James DeMuth (21:41):
Yeah, so initially our service is freely focused on large OEMs. To date we’ve gotten seven large OEMs to a sign up for our program, congrat congrat and you know, express interest in doing so they are they hail from, you know, automotive, aerospace, energy, consume electronics you know, really the full gambit there. But really the way our process works is we first need to qualify their material and their parts. And it’s really crucial to do them both in tandem. You know, we’re not looking to be a prototyping shop. We’re not looking to do one-offs. You know, when we’re talking about volumes, we’re talking about hundreds of metric tons per year for each of these customers, right? Yeah. So our early engagement is gonna be with these larger volume manufacturing lots. And you know, that means that when you’re, when putting this together, it takes some work to make sure that you’ve, you know, if you’re doing anything in large quantity, you wanna make sure you’re doing it right and you’re doing it right every time.

James DeMuth (22:35):
So there’s a fair amount of work to really get that qualified and get that validated for those initial customers. As we progress and as we evolve, right, this is what we call our area printing production program. It’s about like a one and a half to three year program, depending on the part and depending on the material and the customer, et cetera, and all the requirements, but, you know, that will be condensed down. Especially as different materials are qualified, right? If you already qualified the material to those specs, you don’t need to requalify it. You can move on to qualifying just those parts that are new. You know, as you’re really, depending on what the requirements are that affects the qualification timeline. And, you know, eventually we’re looking to get to a point where, you know, we can do a lot more smaller orders as well. And that’s just, you know, it’s part of the roadmap. But you know, we’re, our main focus is on these sort of larger OEMs which in terms of timeline, we’re kind of looking, you know, like I said, it’s about roughly call it two one and a half to three years for the qualification timeline before we enter series production. Again, depends on all the different requirements.

Adam Penna (23:46):
No, it does. There’s a lot you have to go through and those qualifications and it’s part of that process though, of actually working together with partnerships and, and making things better. So I’m glad to hear a lot of people that are lining up to do that and the reality, excuse me, there the reality about what happens with metal inside of 3D printing. And I know a lot of people are attacking the sustainability side on the polymer side, but metal you don’t hear too much about. And it sounds like that’s obviously where you’re starting out and talk. I know you’ve talked about it, but talk about it again. What do you see as far as metal goes with 3D printing. What role do you see the metals playing as sustainable.

James DeMuth (24:29):
I mean, I guess the, you know, the big part on metals, I mean, whether steel is actually probably one of the, the, the, the better ones, you know, when you start looking at aluminum and titanium and other alloy out there the, the casting process in particular, there for them can be very greenhouse gas heavy and on emissions. You know, it’s, I think there’s a lot of when we talk about pricing, we look at fully integrated pricing. So if you were to buy apart from us, right, if we’re charging you $300, a kilo, that’s the all-in cost, right? That’s the cost of the powder, the post-procesing, you know, the amoamortization machine and service everything, right? That’s yeah. Take your part weight and multiply it by the cost. There you go. Right. On a rough perspective. The, you know, when we look at how the value chain is gonna flow, as we proceed into the future, right?

James DeMuth (25:22):
Powder costs today are really driven large part by volume. And we see a very sort of positive feedback loop that happens when you order larger volumes, you get better discounts on powder, you can lower your prices. You can order larger volumes, you can get better discounts on, you know, around and around you go. And to some extent that can drive you down the cost curve. But at the fundamental limit, you’re limited. Like if you imagine what’s the what’s, the lowest powder could get, right. And in the limit, it’s the cost raw material cost and the cost to powderize it. You know, the, the energy consumption cost where the actual equipment cost of powerization is amortized over such a large volume of material that it effectively goes to zero, right? That’s the limit. And get to the point where the next step you need to do is how do you get the energy cost down and how do you get the raw material cost down? And there’s a lot of innovative technologies that are, we see moving along in parallel to do that. And everyone is focused on how you do that in a green sustainable way. So it’s very exciting to see sort of how these different, how this is all is gonna work together in synergy. And, you know, it might be that, you know, as we grow, we need to invest to accelerate some of that development work along because it’s not moving naturally at the pace that we want it to. So it’ll be interesting to see how that unfolds.

Adam Penna (26:39):
It will be interesting to see, and it’s it’s very interesting. Thank you so much for joining me here today. I’ve really enjoyed hearing about what’s happening with SSeurat and really look forward to seeing what’s next with you guys. Obviously there’s a lot coming up right now with the investments going on. So that’s exciting, and I love your approach with the service side of it, to actually open that up out there and not have to wait to purchase a machine, to get this going. You could actually get the service and get the results upfront, which is the lower cost and the same precision and that you’re looking at. Are you guys pushing anything with precision? That’s a good question to ask. Is there anything more precise or are you getting about the best with the speed and everything else that you can do?

James DeMuth (27:21):
Yeah. You know, that’s really interesting. We see that because we’re patterning our lasers, right? So we, we take, we generate this big slug of laser energy. We apply pattern to it. We project it down to the powder bed and we sort of melt this large area and whatever pattern we, we want. We then do that again and again and again. So it’s a pulse process within every shot, right? Every sort of tile that we print you know, we’ve got, you know, over a couple million pixels and it’s gonna work out to be around six to 10 microns per okay. Per pixel. You know, the, the, the size of your tile changes depending on the material. So, you know, aluminum will have bigger tile, something like ston would have a smaller tile steal somewhere in the middle. And that means intense the range on the pixel size.

James DeMuth (28:13):
But you know, you’re, you’re when your pixels are that small, you’re really limited by the powder, right? So you know, we’re using traditional powder sizes 15 to 45 is pretty stand your cut and that’s microns. But the, you know, that means if you’re six to 10 on the, your pixel size and your powders, 45 microns, you know, you’re, you’re limited by the ization of the powder. So, you know, eventually to go finer, we will be looking into going to finer powders and so forth. And, you know, we’re right now, for example doing all of our all of our cost estimates are actually with 25 micron layers printed material. Right. Okay. And so it’s, it’s relatively thin. That’s the other way that sort of you see that conventional manufacturing for laser powder fusion is tried to scale is to go to thicker powder layers.

James DeMuth (29:04):
But you do lose resolution in the Z height as you do that. So we see that, you know, we need to maintain high quality resolution in both X, Y, and Z. And so that’s something that we we see as important and we can do all of it while dropping our costs down. Wow. So pixel size, we design our pattern devices. We can essentially design whatever resolution we want and and implement that into the system. But you know, spreading really fine powder as probably most folks know is, is very challenging. Especially as you, you get really small, you get lots of fun forces that come in there cause things to clump up and not spread smoothly. So you know, obviously it’s an area of a lot of interest that’s going on just in, you know, in spite of rah or despite of us, whatever the right word is there, but, you know, it’s it’s, it’s happening.

James DeMuth (29:56):
It’s going on in parallel. You know, we also have of a unique ability to really control quality from the perspective of, with metal, your, how you allow the metal to cool. Once it’s been melted has a huge impact on the material quality and for standard laser powder, red fusion, you’re just scanning your laser around as fast as you can go. And the time it’s takes you from move to one pixel one sort of spot to the next, and then on the next, the next, the next dictates how fast you cool, to some extent by us exposing an area, we actually can control how we turn off the laser and we can do it on a per pixel basis. So that means we have per pixel control over cooling rates, which that, you know, a lot of materials that suffer from stress cracking, cuz they cool too rapidly. We have an opportunity to change the game there. Instead of having to spend all this time and energy to architect materials for a, a fairly stubborn process is what exists today. We have an opportunity to architect our process around the material. And you know, you can imagine scenarios where you have an architected material and an architected process and you can get one plus one equals sort of four type of math. And that’s where things get really exciting is when you can really leverage the benefits of both which is impossible today.

Adam Penna (31:18):
Yeah, it is. And, and it’s, it’s, it’s getting there. You’re getting me excited though. Talking about this. It’s a, it’s a definite step forward, in a lot of directions and wow. Again, James, thanks for joining us today. It’s been wonderful having you. I look forward to seeing much more from you and Seraut in the future here. And again, thanks again for joining us. You have a wonderful day.

James DeMuth (31:38):
My pleasure. You too.

New Speaker (31:39):
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