Liberating Ideas with Planet Saving Manufacturing: Kevin Czinger of Divergent3D

Adam Penna (00:01):
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Adam Penna (00:23):
Hey, welcome to Am Voices. This is your host, Adam Penna, and I am here today with Kevin Czinger from Divergent 3D, and he is here to talk a little bit more about what’s been going on over there. He’s the founder, lead inventor, CEO at Divergent and Czinger Vehicles, and they’re essentially reducing auto manufacturing waste and harnessing the value of digital manufacturing. So, welcome Kevin. Great to have you here today.

Kevin Czinger (00:47):
Well, thanks so much for having me on Adam.

Adam Penna (00:49):
Yeah, no, I know we’ve talked in the past about a lot of different things that has been going on. I met you at the AutoMate AM event last October, over there in California, and there’s been a lot going on since then, but it was good to sit down with you then, and it’s good to be here with you today. So thanks for joining us.

Kevin Czinger (01:06):
Thank you again.

Adam Penna (01:08):
Yeah. I know one of your tag lines is liberating ideas with planet saving manufacturing, and that’s really what I started to notice a little bit more about besides this beautiful car that you’ve been taking everywhere around the world and breaking track records. I actually know you were here in Austin a few months back, so it’s good to see those type of things happening, but there’s a bigger, bigger thing going on there with what’s happening with how you’re actually assembling and reducing waste in manufacturing. I’d love to talk to you a bit about that today and learn more about how you’ve been doing.

Kevin Czinger (01:39):
Sure. So what would you like me to … is there question in there, Adam?

Adam Penna (01:45):
Yeah, it’s definitely, I just kicking it off. I know in background, since you’ve been doing a lot of things leading up to where you are now, so talk a little bit about what’s been going on, and especially in the last couple of years, because you’ve come a long way during the pandemic and you have some things lined up going forward. So, how’s that been for you in the last couple of years?

Kevin Czinger (02:04):
Sure. The company is about five years old in terms of actually raising capital and scaling the company. Today we have about 180 scientists and engineers. We’re all located in L.A. in one building. So it’s part office, part factory, and I run it like a Cold War era version of Lockheed Martin Skunk Works. So, everyone is under one roof. All of the teams are cross functional, and we do the full product cycle from R&D through production, through testing, all here in one facility, and that allows us to have very quick and open communications and very rapid decision making among all teams. And when you’re trying to build the world’s first true digital manufacturing system, that kind of communication and openness and rapid decision making and iteration is absolutely essential.

Adam Penna (03:09):
Yeah, it is to have all that communication in one house, especially on the digital side, there’s so much happening. I know that one of your taglines is also design, print, assemble and drive, and that’s an automated modular process that you’re setting up there with your team. So talk a little bit about that process itself.

Kevin Czinger (03:28):
Well, Divergent objective is to, one, create that digital manufacturing system, which we have today and are operating the first version of it in our factory in Los Angeles. Ultimately though our objective is to have a set of modular facilities around the world, and have that network of manufacturing facilities so that we’re able to provide sustainable manufacturing anywhere on the planet to any team on the planet and do it in a cost effective, efficient way and in a sustainable way.

Kevin Czinger (04:17):
The design, print, assemble is end drive. I would say design, print, assemble as a system representation is a simple one. When you look under the hood, obviously it’s massively complex in building a system. And so, that design, print, assemble means really fully automate digital design of a structure, including the design for manufacture and design for assembly, and do that using high performance computing, super computing and AI. So you’re generating the full digital package for a structure for a vehicle, meaning the frame for a vehicle or suspension components or combined braking suspension systems or combined EV motor and crash structure of the vehicle or combined battery, and pack structure and crash structure of the vehicle.

Kevin Czinger (05:29):
So you’re generating that and then you are printing it using the right materials, and in our case, these are purpose built, invented materials, and then you have a system to assemble those, that’s a universal assembler. So, we have an assembly system where we’re taking any of those component level parts that get generated, and then that system can automatically assemble them very quickly in a system that has automotive rate and aerospace accuracy. And what that allows us to do is really have a universal construction system, where we can design anything against a set of constraints, print what’s been designed with high fidelity in the right material, and then have a universal assembly cell where you can go from assembling an F-16 size drone to assembling a battery electric SUV seamlessly with zero switch over time.

Kevin Czinger (06:35):
So we’re a true digital system. That’s what we’ve built. We have the car company which is 70% owned by Divergent. It’s called Czinger Vehicles, a surprising name.

Adam Penna (06:51):
Hey, great name.

Kevin Czinger (06:52):
I like it. And then Divergent is really the technology company, and we’ve been working with a small group of major OEMs brands within top five in terms of global manufacturing volume, top five global OEM groups. And we did that really to validate the product, meaning validate the structures, take them from elemental materials, characterization all the way through full vehicle crash, qualified the production system itself for rate and cost.

Kevin Czinger (07:28):
And then obviously you need to go through many, many, many OEM audits on quality and other areas in order to be a safety structure tier one qualified supplier, which we’ve been through. I’d say last year, having gone through all of that validation and qualification by the end of 2020, last year we actually started to scale, and now we have, I’d say more than 10 structures programs. These are production programs that are going to be rolled out beginning in September of this year. So, just to be clear, these are amalgamated vehicles that are going into customers hands, just like you look out into our parking lot.

Kevin Czinger (08:22):
You see all these cars, this is a car that is going to be licensed and driven, and our frame structures will be in a car with a major OEM starting in the third quarter of this year. So, months from now. I’d say these initial programs in 2022, 2023 are in the hundreds and then low single digit thousands.

Adam Penna (08:46):
Okay.

Kevin Czinger (08:46):
But going out three years plus, we have programs that go from the tens of thousands to the hundreds of thousands of [crosstalk 00:08:53]

Adam Penna (08:53):
Wow.

Kevin Czinger (08:54):
And so this is a scalable technology, we’re going to scale by setting up additional factories in Europe, starting at the end of 2023 and 2024. As I said, the real core idea of this is to take these factories, which will own and operate as fully digital factories and locate them in all of the major regions of the planet, where you would be doing manufacturing, and offer these manufacturing services. Because literally a factory that we run has a set of printer modules, and it has a set of assembly modules.

Kevin Czinger (09:33):
If somebody uses the design software, which will make available in ’24 as a SaaS application, they’ll be able to design a structure for our system, and without putting up any capital for tooling or fixturing of a structure or a vehicle, we’ll print and assemble that structure for them. And that I think is the start of knock on wood, a revolution towards a much more resilient, efficient, and sustainable global manufacturing system.

Adam Penna (10:10):
Very important. No, and I’m glad you clarified that because that’s an automated modular process that you’re able to scale up and bring anywhere pretty much. So, you’ve started doing that, your own facility there and you have your flagship vehicle that you’ve been taking around and you’ve built a couple vehicles obviously over the last few years that you’ve premiered and have had out there in the world doing some great racing. I know you were here in Austin a few months back, like I mentioned, at the Indy Trucks here.

Adam Penna (10:39):
It’s good to see that happening. There’s a lot going on inside of 3D printing and additive manufacturing, but these are some of the flagship applications. And what you’re doing is not just the applications, it’s the whole process, it’s the whole manufacturing setup that you have there, which is revolutionizing what’s going on really in auto mode of manufacturing.

Adam Penna (10:59):
And I heard you talk about in some prior conversations, just what sparked looking at the waste, usually people look at waste that comes out of the vehicle when it’s being driven, but the waste that happens when it’s actually being manufactured and going through iterations is something that you’re circling around and coming up with new ways to approach because of all of the digital power out there basically, not only with robotics and AI and 3D printing, but combining all that to actually bring that data in and do something with it. So, talk a little bit more, expand a little bit more about that, and that actual true problem we have with the sustainability in the automotive industry that you’re tackling right now.

Kevin Czinger (11:45):
Sure. People talk about the circular economy and making the entire life cycle more sustainable, meaning everything from mining, processing, manufacturing, to obviously the use where you either have a tailpipe or you don’t, and then the end of life of a vehicle or a product where it’s either they’re thrown away, or there’s some type of recycling. In order to have any chance at having a sustainable economic system from an environmental standpoint, we need to have a system that looks at that entire life cycle and assesses it.

Kevin Czinger (12:38):
And when you look at the real impacts on the planet, they’re from the volume of material and energy flows, and whether they’re unidirectional or they’re looped into a cycle, like recycling. If you look at what that means, obviously we’re going to start scaling up electric vehicles, electric vehicles are much heavier, they require much more material and energy to manufacture, and we can’t be removing a tailpipe exhaust in one place and adding pollution, CO2 emissions, and other emissions. There are many different types of damaging emissions to the planet in addition to CO2 emissions, but we can’t replace or add emissions in some other part of the cycle.

Kevin Czinger (13:36):
And so, what you need to do is use what is really the core revolution, which is processing power, computing power to dematerialize those material and energy flows, and to give you a super simple example that actually comes from today’s analog world. 50 years ago, if you had beer can, it would require 83 grams of aluminum, and almost 100% of it was primary mined aluminum. Today that 83 grams is now less than 13 grams of aluminum, and 76% of it is recycled. We need to start looking at our larger build world from the same perspective, use computing power to make radically more efficient structures that use less material and energy in their making.

Kevin Czinger (14:32):
Then those much more efficient structures in turn will consume less electricity or other fuel in their operation. And then at the end of their life, instead of having unidirectional river flow of material and energy, you need to loop that back into the design production process and recycle those materials. So, any system today that is going to be sustainable needs to look at that manufacturing component and use the principles of the materialization and closed looping or recycling of materials. And I can give you just one quick example.

Kevin Czinger (15:19):
Over 15 years ago, co-founded an EV car company and an EV battery design manufacturing company, and those were joint ventures in China. And by 2010, long before Tesla and other companies were doing purpose-built batteries for EVs, we had the world’s first EV battery mega factory operating in T&G and you can, if you put my name in, and [Gary Black 00:15:48] who was the secretary Congress at that time into YouTube, you’ll see me giving a tour in front of the World Press and Chinese and American dignitaries of the world’s first EV battery manufacturing, mega factory.

Kevin Czinger (16:02):
But the truth of the matter is, when I looked at that from a life cycle assessment standpoint, that factory, because it was using coal-fired power to produce cathodes for the battery, which is very energy intensive, it was producing over 200 kilograms of CO2 emissions per kilowatt-hour a battery. So you take a, say the average Tesla, you multiply it by those 200 kilograms, say 90 kilowatt-hours by 200 kilograms of CO2. I mean, those are higher emissions than driving a Toyota Camry for 80,000 miles.

Kevin Czinger (16:36):
So depending on where you build something and how you build something, it can have a tailpipe or not have a tailpipe and still have massive impact on the environment from CO2 and other emission standpoint. So you need to look at things from a life cycle assessment and manufacturing is absolutely, absolutely key, and how you set up that manufacturing and whether you achieve dematerialization and closed looping or not, that’s essential.

Adam Penna (17:07):
You hit on a lot of things there, and I know from a prior podcast, I talked to Hans Langer, and one of his future looking ideas he had was just that, what you’re talking about in general is like, these printers are printing parts out there, the 3D printers, but a lot of them aren’t customized for the application, and it sounds like you’re customizing things for the application, which is pushing 3D printing and additive manufacturing into the future, because that’s really where the value starts coming in inside of the machine when it’s doing a specialized process, instead of just dumping parts into a machine and that type of thing. Is that the path that you’ve been taking, is customizing a lot of those processes inside the machine, customizing the machine to do exactly what you needed to do?

Kevin Czinger (17:57):
Well, I would take one step further back, which is, and obviously Hans has been amazingly successful and is in that way, a hero of mine. But I did not start with thinking about 3D printing at all. I started thinking about what’s a digital manufacturing system, and then I specked a 3D printer to that system. So, if you go back and did a Google search and put in Divergent and SLM solutions about four and a half years ago, in 2017, or maybe is even longer, I went to them and I [specced 00:18:40] a printer, which is the 12 laser printer we’ve been using for the last two years.

Kevin Czinger (18:46):
And that was really saying, “I need an open architecture where I can use my own materials, my own parameter development and my own modifications to what this is.” And that machine was designed to be part of the digital adaptive production system that Divergent had created. So, I started from a completely different perspective, which is not, “Hey, I have machines and I’m trying to find a market, do you want to modify?” I started from, “No, you have to start with a clean sheet spec.” And what I would say is, we’re going to be obviously continuously within that open architecture model, driving the development of machine software and hardware to fit into our production system.

Kevin Czinger (19:39):
And I think that’s a very different approach than others are taking, which is simply have something and then modify it to apply. It is design for the application, find partner or partners that are willing to do that with you and provide that machine, and then obviously you run a system, I’ve got my first MVE viable version of a system with this initial set of global auto OEMs that we have. I mean, as I said, we’re going to have our first vehicle with an outside OEM out on the road in the third quarter of this year. But if you look going out ’24, ’25 forward, we have vehicle models that we’re working on in production programs with SOPs, and that starts of production in that period of time that are in the tens of thousands, and then hundreds of thousands of vehicles [crosstalk 00:20:44] model life.

Kevin Czinger (20:47):
You can only do that if you’ve specced an entire system to achieve a particular cost goal. So for example, you can have a very fast printer that’s low cost, so that the amortization, the rate’s good, and the amortized printer cost per kilogram of structure is at a lower price point than others, but unless you’re also taking away all of the fixturing and cost in the factory that’s designed specific, you’re never going to be able to achieve a full system cost model that will be able to replace the old full system cost model.

Kevin Czinger (21:23):
So you have to take that open architecture design for system enablement approach, or you’ll never ever get there. And by the way, I’d say now we’ve gotten there, but it required many, many, many fundamental inventions. We have over 500 patent filings across that entire system.

Adam Penna (21:45):
Wow. Now, you did also mention the OEMs, when can we look forward to hearing the announcement of who those OEMs you’re working with will be?

Kevin Czinger (21:53):
Well, certainly by the third quarter of this year, because vehicles will be out on the road.

Adam Penna (21:57):
Yeah, that’s sometime before September, then that’s really soon looking forward to finding out more of what’s been happening there because that’s the next step. Right? Taking it out into the world and actually building something that could be used in everyone’s everyday life. Really interesting to see that happening. You’re right at that frustum of pushing that forward. So, here we go. That is really cool.

Adam Penna (22:20):
Now, you referred to that, the DAP system, right, that’s your Divergent Adaptive Production System, and that’s like a modular system too. Right? It’s [inaudible 00:22:29] fixturing material, adhesives, and you could do that localized or distribute, it sounds like from what I’m hearing.

Kevin Czinger (22:36):
Yeah. The ultimate business model for the next two years, while we run that system ourselves, both the software and hardware, we’re acting as a tier one supplier. The next step is at the first set of customers, which are European customers, we’re going to be locating two factories in Europe. We will own and operate those. They’ll be adjacent to the auto factories, and we’ll then provide them with the design software. It’s a little bit like the fabulous chip design business model, where you have a product designer, a car company, and then you have a set of tools analogous to electronic design automation tools used for say a chip design.

Kevin Czinger (23:27):
And so those are in a SaaS application, you use those tools, and then you have a fab manufacture it. So you’ll have TSMC or one of the other chip fab manufacturing companies manufacture it. Here I provide the design front end as a SaaS application. And then we set up these modular factories, which are printer modules and assembly modules that get versioned and scaled by us. And in the end, if you look at, say a region, we can set those up. The volume is completely dynamic for the first time, an auto producer rather than being locked into some long period of amortizing, tooling cost for the vehicle and fixturing cost for the vehicle, because those are design locked in costs, and you need, if that’s the numerator, you need a denominator that is vehicle volume over a period of time.

Kevin Czinger (24:30):
And so it’s all about what volume can I get over a long period of time? Now it would be about reaction to market innovation and market demand and being able to have dynamic capacity that can increase capacity, decrease capacity, change design, and change the capacity, all with assets that can be fungibly used against any kind of capacity. It’s like the infrastructure that you have with Amazon Web Services. Right? You can set of design tools for creating a game, and then if you need processing and storage capacity, you can get it dynamically off of Amazon’s Web Services infrastructure. Our plan is to build that same dynamically responsive infrastructure for manufacturing.

Adam Penna (25:29):
Yeah. That is a huge step forward. Like you were talking about the ecosystem that is inside of what you’re doing, is really revolutionized what could be done on vehicle manufacturing and so forth now, as far as you talked about your plans for digital vehicle production in the future, but now going forward too, since you’ve been so good at looking at the automotive manufacturing side, are you planning on taking this anywhere outside of automotive? Just curious.

Kevin Czinger (26:02):
Yes. We’ve actually started our next program just very recently in the aerospace defense area [crosstalk 00:26:13]

Adam Penna (26:13):
That’s what I was hoping to hear, the next great venture outside of automotive. That’s awesome.

Kevin Czinger (26:20):
So if you look at what these factories can be, imagine regionally you have that dynamic modular capacity, and it is for multiple industries across multiple companies. And it really is like an Amazon Web Services infrastructure that many different types of web retail companies game developers, app developers, can use that dynamic capacity. Here multiple industries with multiple companies can use that design software as a cloud SaaS application, and that localized manufacturing capacity, and do it in a sustainable system. And it’s called an adaptive production system, not only because it uses generative design, automation and AI to design very efficient structures, where you’re learning through the system and developing more and more efficient structures. We also have developed our own MES system.

Kevin Czinger (27:26):
So the factory itself is taking data and you’re then using that to adapt the entire manufacturing system as well. And what that means is, and one of my long term key goals is that, I want to have these manufacturing footprints be permanent manufacturing footprints, because they will never become obsolete, they’ll always be accessing a global data set from all of the factory nodes to then version, all aspects of the manufacturing system. And so the adaptive production system is not only for the product, it’s for the factory development itself. And over time, we’ll print more and more of the factory itself.

Kevin Czinger (28:16):
So the factory will design and manufacture itself as it iterates, and you’ll no longer have destruction of community like I saw [inaudible 00:28:27] in Cleveland where going the ’60s and ’70s where I grew up it was a leader in manufacturing and industry, had companies like White Trucks in Cleveland as a manufacturer. And then you saw that analog high fixed capital equipment that was design locked become obsolete, and then those factory footprints get wiped out or moved. And here we want to have something that is a data system that allows for permanent manufacturing and footprints.

Adam Penna (29:08):
No, that makes sense. That’s exciting to hear. My gosh, there’s so much that could be done on that side of things. We started off talking earlier about, it’s a slogan out there, the factory of the future, but you have that now, it’s happening right now. It’s not something that we’re pushing out in the future, you’re doing it now, incorporating all the digital value out there into what can be done and how we could harness that, sounds like a very a customized user interface that you’ll have there to access all of those different digital connections there. That’s really interesting.

Adam Penna (29:44):
Now, I know you also talked about the materials and what you can do with the materials inside of the process, because you’re adapting the materials to actually meet function and demand in the industry. So, talk a little bit about your materials out there, and some of the stuff you’ve been doing. I know you’ve been working with structures differently. The honeycomb structures is a big part of the engineering and manufacturing, especially on the 3D printing side. So there’s things you’re doing with materials and structures a lot differently. Talk a little bit about that and how that’s going for you.

Kevin Czinger (30:12):
Well, we have a full a materials lab and a full materials lab for both alloys and we use primarily aluminum alloys, and we’ve chosen a subset of around 27 materials that are the key commonatorial materials for automotive and aerospace and defense structures. We’ve chosen because we’re first targeting automotive as the largest of those global markets, primarily aluminum alloys, and alloy elements that are at the cost point that you can provide for the auto industry cost competitive structures.

Kevin Czinger (31:00):
But if you look at the outside of what we’re doing, the 3D printing industry, there are not available cost effective materials for the different structures of vehicles. So for example, one of the benefits we’ve had of inventing our own system and using materials for that system is that, the materials that you have, they need to be able to be manufacturable. So, at your layer thicknesses for scaling, at your high laser powers for scaling and air flow and other aspects of additive manufacturing, you need manufacturable materials within your system. You need affordable materials within your system, and then you need performing materials within your system.

Kevin Czinger (31:58):
And so if you look and go, what out there has printed elongation, a ductility so that in the crash area of the vehicle, it’s not going to shatter, or it’s not going to be so stiff, it transfers G forces into the occupant area and injures people, or kills them. You need to design materials that meet all of those constraints, all of those requirements, including that ductility to absorb energy and crumple in the right way. And you need to be able to take it through the full automotive process from elemental materials, characterization to full vehicle crash, which we’ve done now with multiple global OEMs.

Kevin Czinger (32:51):
Then you need to be able to initially, because you’re not completely redesigning the structure or architecture of a vehicle, you need to be able to plug into an existing vehicle architecture and processes. So for example, there may be a 200 °C paint process that they use, where there can’t be any degradation of materials of the alloys, for example, or because we only use adhesives or the adhesives used for joining those multiple structures. So you have a 10 frame structure that’s bonded together. It needs to be able to go through that entire process and performance and meet all regulatory standards.

Kevin Czinger (33:37):
And then you have different automakers. Some of whom use decoding as a process, some of whom use anodization as a process, have different cyclic corrosion tests, different environmental tests. You have to invent and design materials that are manufacturable materials, cost effective materials, and ones that meet all of the performance requirements, not only on the road, but in the OEM production process. And in the course of working with these OEMs, you are generating many, many, many patents because you’re having to invent new materials, new machines, new software, all of which are necessary to meet their processes and requirements.

Adam Penna (34:28):
So let me ask you, since it’s very new and as we know in the automotive industry, and you’ve been going through this, a qualification process and all the stuff like this, to make sure that it’s ready to go, you obviously shortened that time by a lot from what’s normal in the automotive industry, is that correct?

Kevin Czinger (34:46):
Yes. I’d say we’ve had programs where literally from program kickoff to six months out, we needed to provide a crash structure for a production vehicle program, and start delivering for vehicle validation, durability validation of an entire vehicle, and a crash where our frame structure was a key part of, obviously, the vehicle if not the most from the rear of the vehicle, the most important structure there.

Kevin Czinger (35:22):
So, that is an incredibly collapsed timeframe to kick off something, engineer it, build it, test it, and then deliver it for OEM validation vehicles. And during the course of that process, we had re-engineering that needed to be done by the OEM where they changed, say the location of components within the area that frame was in, and we were able to … ordinarily each of these changes would take six months or more of engineering and extending of the development timeframe. We were doing it within a week or a week and a half.

Adam Penna (36:13):
Wow. That blows my mind. Yeah. I came from automotive industry initially as a designer and I just remember the amount of PPAPs and processes and all this other stuff that we had to go through.

Kevin Czinger (36:25):
Absolutely, we used the five phase PPAP related product development and validation process, but this isn’t, “Hey, we have a formula one car, do this one part against a set of stiffness constraints with all tear opt destructor autodesk or something.” And it has that one constraint. This is design something that’s going to go through all of these load cases, all of these processes, be cost effective, be better performing. And that is not a single constraint for a racing carb product. This is many, many constraints, many, many objectives built into a digital system that can do it at rate and cost for the automotive industry.

Adam Penna (37:25):
Yeah. You’re blowing my mind. I love hearing all this man, this is-

Kevin Czinger (37:29):
[crosstalk 00:37:29] checking out. Yeah, because [inaudible 00:37:32] you’re welcome to come here anytime.

Adam Penna (37:34):
Yeah, yeah, we’re going to have to make that happen. I’ll know I’ll be out there in June. We talked about doing that. So we’ll definitely set that up. Kevin, this has been a great conversation and I really enjoy talking to you. Is there anything else you’d like to share while we have you here?

Kevin Czinger (37:49):
No, I think the only thing I’d say is, thank you very much for having us here. What I would say is, there’s not going to be a clean energy revolution, unless there’s a clean manufacturing revolution, and we better understand that very, very well. Right? We can’t consume ourselves into sustainability. We can’t massively increase material and energy flows and think because some part of the system looks clean, that we’re actually improving things and not just fooling ourselves.

Kevin Czinger (38:34):
Because, like that point I made, right, if you have … Forget a 90 kilowatt-hour vehicle, we know most batteries are now built in China using coal fired power. If you are generating, say there are vehicles out there, SUVs, pickup trucks that are EVs with double that 90kilowatt-hour I was talking about. I mean, what happens when a vehicle is born with CO2 emissions that are equivalent to driving two Toyota Camrys for 80,000 miles. Right?

Adam Penna (39:12):
Yeah.

Kevin Czinger (39:13):
But we’re not looking at that because we’re saying it doesn’t have a tailpipe. If that’s what we do to the planet, then shame on us at this point in our history, we need to look at that full life cycle assessment. Once again I guess, if there’s one thing I was going to leave people with it’s, there is no clean energy revolution without a clean manufacturing revolution. Period, full stop. Otherwise, we’re completely fooling ourselves.

Adam Penna (39:41):
Absolutely. Kevin, thank you for being a steward of positive environmental ship and manufacturing. I look forward to seeing the results of the DAPS process implemented for serial production. So, thanks again for being here, Kevin.

Kevin Czinger (39:52):
Enjoyed it. Thank you. Thanks so much, Adam.

Adam Penna (39:56):
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